Think Big, Start Small: Real Estate Investing with Matthew Devercelly | Movers and Shakers Podcast

[00:00:07] Hello and welcome to the Movers and Shakers Podcast. My name is Gino Barbera, one of the co-founders of Jake and Gino. And on today's show, I am welcoming Matthew Devercelly. He currently has 21 units spread out over multiple properties that he is self-managing. While he doesn't consider himself a total professional yet, although I think he does, he's already in the game. He loves the journey and is continuing to grow into financial freedom within one year or less. Welcome to the show, Matt. How you doing, brother? Matt Devercelly

[00:00:37] I'm honored. This is my first podcast that I've ever actually done. So thanks for inviting me on. I feel almost a little Joe Rogan-esque. I got the bald head and the full headset. So I tried to bring my A game for the podcast here.

[00:00:51] Let me tell you something. I ain't Joe Rogan. I wish I got interviewed like him. He just sits down and has a casual conversation, which is what we're going to have because I think it's important. You know, we've discussed a lot of different things before we jumped on and I want people to get to know you a little bit. First of all, share the story of how we got to know each other.

[00:01:07] And you were saying to yourself, I'm thinking of playing small. How do I get into this multifamily game?

[00:01:13] Yeah. When I first came across yourself and Jake, Jake and Gino, I only had two units at that time. They were single family, let's say single family residential. And when I started listening to your podcast and I met you guys at that event in Mayo Pack, it just so worked out that my W2 job at the time had opened up a new office in Mayo Pack, like you and I were discussing a moment ago.

[00:02:05] I'm anyway, just a blue collar, you know, middle management professional. But you guys made multifamily at scale seem very attainable to somebody like me.

[00:02:15] As Donald Trump says, when he's passing out those French fries, you're not the average person. There is no one on this planet that is average.

[00:02:24] Maybe we're thought that we're average because we're thrown into this mix and maybe we get to a W2 job and we get into this kind of routine and our identity becomes our job.

[00:02:32] And I really, truly believe that if we step out and we start thinking about, you know, what we're here for and why we're here, then we start having those conversations of, well, what should I do?

[00:02:41] What am I supposed to be doing? And for you, it led you to multifamily. Why multifamily?

[00:02:46] I like the economies of scale. And I think it was good that I really started off with a couple single families just because although they went well,

[00:02:55] I think a lot of BiggerPockets listeners and listeners of yours would agree that, you know, one single family door, if it goes well, you're going to cash flow two, three, 400 bucks in that first year or two.

[00:03:07] And that's great. But that's a single when you can put some scale behind it and you can cash flow two or 300 bucks a door on a 12 unit, a 24 unit, a 36 unit.

[00:03:17] Now you're really creating wealth for yourself. So although I don't have any regrets whatsoever, multifamily just seems like a real asset.

[00:03:26] That's an investment as opposed to just a house, if you will.

[00:03:32] So if I'm listening to this, what are some of the things that I should be doing right now to get into multifamily?

[00:03:38] Because Matthew, I personally believe the next 12 to 24 months, there's going to be a huge opportunity.

[00:03:44] Once the dam breaks, once rates start dropping, once investors that need to sell start selling, there's going to be an opportunity.

[00:03:52] What should I be doing today to get ready for that opportunity?

[00:03:55] You have to plug yourself into the world of multifamily. You have to network. You have to let people know I'm a buyer.

[00:04:02] The 12 unit deal that I closed on, which is my biggest deal to date, that deal was really through just that, what I just said, networking.

[00:04:14] That was not a deal that was listed on the market. That was actually owned by my insurance provider for my other properties.

[00:04:21] And he wasn't inherently a real estate guy. He was first and foremost, a real estate entrepreneur.

[00:04:27] I'm sorry, an insurance entrepreneur who just had a couple pieces of real estate on the side.

[00:04:32] And when he said one day, hey, Matt, I see I write policies for a couple of different duplexes for you in smaller properties.

[00:04:39] I have a 12 unit. I've been thinking about selling it. Maybe you're my buyer.

[00:04:43] And I said, I think I am your buyer. Let's talk.

[00:04:47] So I would say to anybody else, you have to plug yourself into that world. You have to let it be known.

[00:04:53] I am looking to buy multifamily deals and it might just come to you.

[00:04:58] Let me reiterate what Matt said through my lens or through my eyes.

[00:05:04] As Matt was coming to the restaurant, where was Gino?

[00:05:07] Gino was in the kitchen hiding, washing dishes.

[00:05:11] Gino was starting to plug himself into multifamily.

[00:05:15] And once he started doing that, all of a sudden things changed.

[00:05:18] So if you want to get into any venture, whether you want to start investing in real estate,

[00:05:22] whether you want to start investing in Bitcoin stocks, whatever that is,

[00:05:25] you need to start venturing out, getting a little uncomfortable and getting into those circles,

[00:05:30] getting into those groups.

[00:05:31] Because if you're going to get stuck in the kitchen washing dishes,

[00:05:34] you're only going to be hanging around with dishwashers and waitresses and cooks.

[00:05:38] That's not a good or bad thing.

[00:05:40] That's just the reality.

[00:05:42] You're not finding multifamily deals in the kitchen.

[00:05:44] Unless, of course, you've got some clients or customers coming to the kitchen and hanging out.

[00:05:49] But that wasn't happening.

[00:05:50] And I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[00:05:52] All of a sudden, you start shedding that identity of, hey, I'm just a W-2.

[00:05:55] I'm just the average person.

[00:05:56] You have to realize that it is attainable for anybody.

[00:06:01] But you have to learn.

[00:06:03] The education is important.

[00:06:05] Then it's the action.

[00:06:06] The action that you're talking about is going out there and finding the deal.

[00:06:10] So this 12 unit, what attracted you about this 12 unit?

[00:06:12] And if you want to go through the buy right, the manage right, and the finance right in this 12 unit,

[00:06:16] I'd love to hear that as well.

[00:06:18] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:19] I'm prone to ramble.

[00:06:21] So I apologize in advance if I start rambling and going off in different directions.

[00:06:25] But like I said, the 12 unit came to me from my insurance guy in the town

[00:06:31] where I buy a lot of smaller properties already in upstate New York.

[00:06:36] He was telling me just through the initial conversations about the recent projects that he did to the building,

[00:06:42] new water heaters, new roofs, stuff like that.

[00:06:45] But then when we really got to his financials, I saw that his rents were way under market.

[00:06:52] And keeping in mind, I had a fair amount of units already in this town.

[00:06:57] So I had a good idea of what real market rents were.

[00:07:00] And I saw that each unit was probably two or at least 300 bucks per unit under market.

[00:07:08] Keeping in mind that he's an insurance guy.

[00:07:11] He's not a real estate guy.

[00:07:12] He wasn't going to bother with $75 a month rent bumps and stuff like that.

[00:07:16] He was just happy to have tenants that were paying every month.

[00:07:19] So I saw that as my opportunity.

[00:07:21] The building really doesn't need any heavy lifts.

[00:07:24] So went to go walk it with him, verified what he said is true.

[00:07:28] The units looked great.

[00:07:29] It really just needed better management.

[00:07:33] It needed somebody like me to come in and really treat it like a business.

[00:07:36] And not just for somebody to just park some money and forget about it.

[00:07:39] So that's my intention.

[00:07:40] And it's only been less than two months.

[00:07:43] But doing the repairs for the tenants that were, I don't want to say neglected,

[00:07:49] but just some repairs that fell to the wayside is my first priority.

[00:07:52] Haven't bumped any rents.

[00:07:53] So going to make sure that they feel comfortable with me as the new owner.

[00:07:56] Get these small repairs taken care of.

[00:07:59] And then maybe Q1, we're going to do some soft rent bumps and stuff like that.

[00:08:04] I just, I know we're here to make money, but I want to make sure that I don't become the villain to anybody.

[00:08:10] I want inherited tenants to say, hey, we've had a great experience with Matt since he took over.

[00:08:16] He cleaned up the common area.

[00:08:18] He gave it a good paint job and vacuuming and fixed the washer dryer machines.

[00:08:24] And yeah, in exchange, he bumped the rents.

[00:08:26] But a lot of people might have just bumped those rents with no improvements anyway.

[00:08:30] Let me dive into a couple of things.

[00:08:32] I want you to answer this question.

[00:08:34] Is this the prototypical mom and pop seller that you find out there that's just burned out, that doesn't want the asset anymore?

[00:08:40] He's making more money in insurance.

[00:08:41] He thought he was going to get rich in real estate by just on autopilot.

[00:08:45] Was this that prototypical mom and pop?

[00:08:47] I would.

[00:08:48] I would say he's mom and pop in the sense that he was somewhat hands off.

[00:08:52] This gentleman bought the building 15 years ago with a business partner.

[00:08:57] Again, the two of them weren't really into real estate.

[00:09:00] So they did extremely well in the 15 years because they bought it at such a great price in the depths of the real estate crash.

[00:09:08] I think they bought it 2009, that would be.

[00:09:11] So they were really focused more on the appreciation that they got.

[00:09:14] And again, they weren't really worried about small rent bumps and stuff like that.

[00:09:18] So the answer to your question is yes, mom and pop.

[00:09:21] And then jumping ahead, that played into the financing because they were actually able to seller finance.

[00:09:29] I gave them 18% down and they financed the other, I guess that would be 82% of the balance because they have insurance money, let's just say.

[00:09:39] They didn't need that big payday.

[00:09:40] They actually wanted the mailbox money.

[00:09:42] So it worked out in that sense.

[00:09:44] Matt, how did you go to them and say, hey, let's propose seller financing?

[00:09:49] Were they savvy enough?

[00:09:50] Did they understand the strategy or was it your idea or did they propose it themselves?

[00:09:53] We almost arrived on it at the same exact time.

[00:09:57] They didn't want the capital gains hit.

[00:10:00] They are very savvy.

[00:10:02] It just really worked out that we both wanted to do seller financing.

[00:10:06] They didn't need the big payday.

[00:10:08] They want the mailbox money, spread out their capital gains.

[00:10:12] And they're young.

[00:10:13] What I mean by that is they're going to take any profits basically and reinvest in other businesses, other avenues.

[00:10:22] So it's not like they needed a payday to buy themselves a brand new Mercedes.

[00:10:27] That wasn't their goal here.

[00:10:29] They're savvy.

[00:10:30] So it all worked out.

[00:10:31] So for those of you listening, seller financing is going to be a very hot topic.

[00:10:35] If you want a copy of Creative Cash, email me Gino at Jake and Gino.com.

[00:10:40] But for Matt, it's not like you're going out.

[00:10:42] And this is a tip for everybody listening.

[00:10:44] It's not like you're going out and looking specifically for only seller finance deals.

[00:10:49] You need an owner who's owned the property for a while.

[00:10:51] You need an owner who has equity.

[00:10:54] You need an owner who's savvy enough.

[00:10:56] How did you come across that conclusion?

[00:10:58] How was that conversation?

[00:10:59] Because everyone thinks I'm going to find seller financing and all I'm going to do is I'm going to go out there and look for seller finance deals.

[00:11:05] If the deal doesn't work traditionally where rents are under market and the financing is tough to get, that's when you move over to seller financing.

[00:11:14] So was it you saying, hey, you know what?

[00:11:15] I think we can seller finance this deal or was it them with the solution that I don't want to pay capital gains taxes?

[00:11:21] I was prepared to get a traditional loan.

[00:11:26] I mean, I was going to buy this if I had to rob and steal.

[00:11:29] Not literally, but I was doing some basic underwriting with a lender.

[00:11:36] Actually, Eric, who's a part of Wheelbarrow Profits.

[00:11:38] Shout out to Eric.

[00:11:39] He was very easy to work with before I arrived at the seller financing.

[00:11:44] But like I said, we arrived at it at the same time.

[00:11:48] I was going to do conventional financing.

[00:11:50] The way that I was going to do the 25% down payment was if I had to sell a couple of smaller properties that I have or had, then that's how I would raise the 25% down payment.

[00:12:05] I did end up actually selling two of my smallest properties and 1031-ing them into this one for the down payment.

[00:12:12] So defer the taxes there.

[00:12:15] So – and you can 1031 even if it's a seller finance deal.

[00:12:19] So that was great.

[00:12:20] So it just – I was getting all the green lights as I drove down the road.

[00:12:24] Wow.

[00:12:25] I'm thinking this through.

[00:12:27] Now, for the manager, for those of you saying, well, why doesn't Matthew go out and raise rents all in one shot?

[00:12:33] If you want to keep your residence and they're paying, let's say, $800 and you need to go to $1,100, it's very difficult to do that.

[00:12:38] You may get to rent the revolt, especially in markets like New York.

[00:12:41] So you have to think about what the system looks like.

[00:12:44] How many units?

[00:12:45] Are they spread across?

[00:12:46] When are these leases expiring and coming due?

[00:12:50] For those of them that are severely under-rented, you may have to issue a non-renewal.

[00:12:54] It's just you may not be able to get from $800 to let's say $1,300 if you go on that high.

[00:12:58] So every situation is really unique and you need to understand what you're trying to accomplish.

[00:13:03] If you can get the same residence and they're willing to go up a couple hundred bucks, that's awesome.

[00:13:07] But this is a lesson for everybody.

[00:13:09] The problem is that owners like that should have a rent bump every year.

[00:13:14] So every year you're doing a nuisance rent bump, keeping up with inflation, $20, $30 a year.

[00:13:19] At the end of five years, it's $100.

[00:13:21] So you don't fall that far behind.

[00:13:24] So for anybody listening to this, I think renters understand that rents are going to go up every year.

[00:13:29] So if you're a landlord, I don't want to say don't feel bad because you can always point back and say, well, my insurance goes up every year.

[00:13:36] My taxes go up every year.

[00:13:38] My garbage goes up every year.

[00:13:40] My fees go up every year.

[00:13:42] So you need to keep in line with that as well.

[00:13:44] Now the financing is in place.

[00:13:46] The buy right is in place.

[00:13:48] The manage right is in place.

[00:13:49] What is your long-term vision for this property?

[00:13:53] I intend to keep this for at least a five to ten-year time frame.

[00:13:58] And when I say keep, it could just actually be as simple as a refi in five years once I get the income of the property up.

[00:14:07] I don't want to say never sell because I did sell two of my smaller properties in order to leap into this one.

[00:14:13] So I understand that you should buy every property with an exit in mind.

[00:14:19] So I don't know if I'm going to sell or just simply refinance after five years.

[00:14:24] I want to see how I do and what the market looks like in five years.

[00:14:28] But I'm in the build stage.

[00:14:30] So maybe it's a little naive of me.

[00:14:32] But right now as I build, I just have such a hard time parting ways or thinking about selling anything.

[00:14:37] But yeah, if I got to sell this 12 unit in five years to raise the down payment in 1031 into a 24 unit, I guess I'll be happy to do so at that time.

[00:14:46] But the answer to your question really is to balance the right mix of getting the income higher over these next several years while not killing anybody.

[00:14:57] I just don't want to be that tyrant.

[00:15:01] I think when these buildings trade hands, a lot of tenants, they're saying, oh man, my rent is going to go up or even worse, I might get kicked out.

[00:15:08] And I just don't want, especially in a small town where this one is, I don't want that reputation.

[00:15:14] To your point, a lot of these units, they're two bedrooms.

[00:15:19] They're currently rented at say $800, $900.

[00:15:22] I had an empty two bedroom unit when I bought the property and closed on it that I got rented right away at $11.80 a month.

[00:15:29] So we're talking, like I said, $300 to $400 bump in some of those cases.

[00:15:37] And I can't do a 50% increase in year one to somebody.

[00:15:40] I just won't do it.

[00:15:41] I like to think that most of my portfolio, which is only 21 units, but I like to think that most of it is really under market.

[00:15:50] And I wear that as a badge of honor.

[00:15:51] Maybe Wall Street wouldn't want to invest in me, but I'm not there yet anyway, so I'm happy to play that middle ground for now.

[00:16:01] So it's interesting.

[00:16:02] Matthew's not going to sell the building to go out and buy a Lamborghini, but Matthew will sell the building to go out and buy a bigger deal.

[00:16:09] And that's the epiphany that a more educated or more experienced investor has.

[00:16:14] When you first start, most newer investors are like, I'm going to buy and hold forever.

[00:16:18] That's a great strategy.

[00:16:20] But as you get more experience, you start trading up your portfolio for larger assets, and you also start trading up your portfolio for newer assets, for better assets.

[00:16:30] You become a much better buyer.

[00:16:32] All of a sudden, your criteria starts changing, and the market cycle starts to change.

[00:16:36] So you really have to understand where you are, but having an exit strategy is so important.

[00:16:41] Now, for those people looking for a market, how did you fall upon your market, and what advice would you give to people selecting a market?

[00:16:50] The advice that I would give to people is don't worry about selecting the greatest market when you're starting out.

[00:16:57] Just be great in the market that you're in.

[00:17:00] The market that I'm in, in upstate New York, it's a smaller town.

[00:17:05] It's not going to be an appreciation play necessarily, although in commercial multifamily, your appreciation is somewhat dependent upon how you run the building and the property.

[00:17:15] But I would say to anybody that's starting out, just be great at whatever market you're in.

[00:17:20] Everybody wants that booming market, the Miamis, the Tampas, the Dallas, the Austin, and that's great.

[00:17:27] And there's opportunities there, but I have to do a lot of legwork to become a player or a mover and shaker in Austin, Texas, where I have nobody there.

[00:17:36] In this town in upstate New York, I have family there.

[00:17:39] I have boots on the ground.

[00:17:40] Even though I'm here on Long Island, I'm in this particular town upstate several times a year.

[00:17:47] And it's easier for me to become a little bit more well-known.

[00:17:52] So again, the market found me in a lot of ways instead of me chasing it.

[00:17:57] And maybe one day I will be in different markets with better appreciation and stuff like that.

[00:18:03] So the word of advice to other people is look in your backyard, look where you have connections or family members.

[00:18:11] Exhaust the resources that are closest to you first before you start reaching too far.

[00:18:17] Matthew, what kind of mistakes do you think you were making early on before you were using the framework or even looking at real estate?

[00:18:23] Probably not thinking big enough right away.

[00:18:27] For a long time, I really just thought that I was going to be the single family, the duplex person.

[00:18:32] And really, there's nothing wrong with that.

[00:18:33] I think a lot of investors should start there and they should self-manage in the beginning those smaller properties just so they can see what it takes.

[00:18:41] And not beating yourself up too much on those simple repairs.

[00:18:45] I think a lot of people overestimate how stressful it is to have a plumber fix a leak.

[00:18:49] It's not the end of the world.

[00:18:51] So I think people should start off small.

[00:18:54] That said, I think I thought too small for too long.

[00:18:58] So start small.

[00:18:59] But once you see that it's going successful with one or two or three or four units, start punching above your weight a little bit.

[00:19:08] That's how you level up and really collapse timelines.

[00:19:12] I love that.

[00:19:13] If you're looking at the framework, buy right, manage right, finance right, and you had to teach on it or you had to discuss what it meant to you, what does that mean to you?

[00:19:21] Talk about each one of those pillars and how it has affected your investing.

[00:19:26] There's a lot there.

[00:19:27] So buy right, we all think about, I think, price right off the bat.

[00:19:33] But we can get creative in real estate.

[00:19:36] That's one of the best things about it.

[00:19:37] So the seller finance deal, I don't think that I would have found a loan at 18% down.

[00:19:43] So maybe I'm mixing the buy right, the manage right, finance right a little bit here.

[00:19:48] But buy right is not just price is what I'm saying.

[00:19:52] There's terms, there's interest rates.

[00:19:55] So that goes to what you said earlier about education, though.

[00:19:59] I know a lot of people in my world or in my circle who they want to do real estate, but they're not learning.

[00:20:05] They're not educating.

[00:20:06] They don't even know what buy right means.

[00:20:08] They think they can just buy a deal off the MLS and put a renter in there, and the rent will just be more than what they paid for it or what they pay on a monthly basis.

[00:20:17] So buy right is really educating yourself beyond just the sales price of a property.

[00:20:26] Finance right.

[00:20:27] Let's talk about finance right real quick.

[00:20:28] Yeah, so rolling some of my comments that I said already about buy right.

[00:20:32] Finance right is, again, basic education, but thinking a little bit further out, what are my finances on this property going to look like one, two, three, five years down the road?

[00:20:43] Because if a property is going to cash flow in, if one door might cash flow in year one by 150 bucks, you got to take that as a win.

[00:20:52] If it was a single family house, let's just say, because three to five years from now should be cash flow on that property, three, four, maybe even $500 a month, depending on the market.

[00:21:03] So again, it's all education.

[00:21:05] That's what it all goes back to at the end of the day, but just having that longer term outlook I think would help with that.

[00:21:13] And the manage right portion, you saw the inefficiencies or the inability for the current group to not manage properly their operations.

[00:21:22] And that brings with it a really significant problem.

[00:21:25] When you're working based on net operating income, which is the income less expenses, if you're running a property with more expenses and you're generating less income, the value of your property is going to be a lot less.

[00:21:37] What does manage right sound to you like?

[00:21:39] What does it seem like to you?

[00:21:40] I think manage right is the most important piece.

[00:21:43] There's psychology and accounting that goes into manage right, meaning if a tenant has a repair, again, if it's a plumbing leak, don't sulk and scoff at it.

[00:21:54] Address their issue.

[00:21:55] Even if it takes a couple of days for a non-emergency call, that tenant wants to be acknowledged.

[00:22:00] You can just say, received, I'm on it.

[00:22:03] We'll give you an ETA as soon as possible, even if it takes a few days.

[00:22:06] So make sure they're heard.

[00:22:08] Make sure you're taking care of the issues as best you can.

[00:22:11] Give everybody an easy way to pay rent.

[00:22:16] Maybe I'm answering a question that you already asked, but a mistake that I made in the beginning was I was accepting Zelle's.

[00:22:23] I was accepting Venmo's or a check or whatever it is.

[00:22:27] That's a mess, and that gets out of hand really quick.

[00:22:29] Have a payment system for all the tenants because it's better for them too.

[00:22:33] It just, you know, everything is online these days.

[00:22:36] If a tenant has a preference for a check, just say, I'm sorry.

[00:22:40] I got to be fair to everybody in the sense that everybody pays the same way.

[00:22:44] Everybody has to follow the same process.

[00:22:46] So that's good management.

[00:22:48] But also management means that, you know, maybe you can get the expenses down a little bit.

[00:22:51] When I took over this property, I was able to get a slightly better deal on the landscaping because I brought in my own guy who I use for the other properties.

[00:22:59] So management is the active work of not just collecting rent, but fixing the issues in the property, you know, negotiating your expenses as best you can.

[00:23:11] And just really looking at what's available in your market as far as your competition.

[00:23:17] You know, where do I stack up against them?

[00:23:19] That's management too.

[00:23:20] Manage your own expectations, right?

[00:23:23] There's probably a lot more that I could say on the management.

[00:23:26] You know, a lot of people think that management is the least sexy part of real estate.

[00:23:30] And in many ways, that's true.

[00:23:31] But I really think that it's probably the most important thing.

[00:23:36] You know, what do they say?

[00:23:37] That the hardest thing is often the right thing.

[00:23:39] So that's probably true of this too.

[00:23:42] Well, it's interesting, Jake and Ivan tossing around the fact that most beginning investors don't look at real estate and investing in real estate as a business.

[00:23:51] You're really investing in a business and you need to buy it right.

[00:23:54] You need to finance it right.

[00:23:56] But ultimately, any business that's run well, they need to manage the business well.

[00:24:01] There's systems, there's operations, there's people, there's culture.

[00:24:05] You need to have it in your multifamily.

[00:24:07] And it's not any different than running a business.

[00:24:09] And if you look at every single deal, whether it's your single families, your duplexes, your 25 unit, your 100 unit,

[00:24:16] they all have to be run properly, run like a business.

[00:24:19] And I think if people can shift that mindset, they will become ultimately successful in investing in any kind of real estate.

[00:24:27] Now, where do you see yourself?

[00:24:28] What are your goals for the next three to five years?

[00:24:34] More footing in the market that I'm in.

[00:24:36] And what I mean by that is this smaller market that I'm in, I really want to become an authority there.

[00:24:43] And I feel that I'm on my way.

[00:24:46] Most of my portfolio is in this town.

[00:24:49] And I would really love to, whether it's ego or just real credentials in my resume, whatever anybody would like to call it,

[00:24:57] I would like to become the authority in a market, become really good at one place before I try to leapfrog into another market.

[00:25:05] So I can see exactly what it takes to build up a really good team in one area and then try to duplicate it somewhere else.

[00:25:14] You know, it's like, if I may make an analogy to you, if I'm going to run a restaurant really, really well,

[00:25:22] it's only then can I think about opening the second location when things are going really well or as good as you think they could be

[00:25:29] before you start thinking about that second location.

[00:25:31] You're probably not going to jump to another location while things are in shambles in the first location.

[00:25:36] So that's my game plan is to keep going in this one market and then leapfrog maybe, you know, I don't know.

[00:25:45] Maybe it will be more of an appreciation play in a different area of the country once I've got this first market,

[00:25:50] which is a cash flow market to the place I want it to be.

[00:25:54] It's not called ego.

[00:25:55] It's called common sense.

[00:25:57] And I think most people confuse that.

[00:25:59] You don't want to outgrow your infrastructure.

[00:26:01] If you've never done it before, you're trying to understand this market.

[00:26:04] Once, you know, Matthew's learned the intricacies of the market, once he's learned his business,

[00:26:09] he can pick that business up and go to any other market.

[00:26:12] So why start all of a sudden trying to diversify yourself and jumping into different markets,

[00:26:17] become an expert in one, master that, and then go open up another restaurant.

[00:26:22] Now, don't do that.

[00:26:22] Don't open up any more restaurants.

[00:26:24] Stay out of that business.

[00:26:25] You know, what do they say about Cornelius Vanderbilt, right, was the railroad kingpin of the 1800s.

[00:26:33] But I think he actually made most of his money in shipping.

[00:26:37] And he became a shipping authority and saw that rail was the future, sold all of his shipping assets,

[00:26:46] and then went into rail and the railroads.

[00:26:49] And so if I may be to indulge myself in quite the comparison, you know, let me be,

[00:26:57] let me follow that model and be an authority in one thing and build some trust and some credibility in one area

[00:27:04] before I come Mr. Tampa Bay, which I would love to be Mr. Tampa Bay.

[00:27:09] I have one random duplex that I still own in Clearwater, Florida, that I just love the property.

[00:27:13] And it's just an outlier.

[00:27:15] But that would probably be the next area.

[00:27:17] I'd love to get a foothold in the Tampa Bay area.

[00:27:20] Where can a list is going to hold you?

[00:27:22] I'm on Instagram at mtdverselli.

[00:27:27] You can also email me.

[00:27:29] My email is matthewdverselli at gmail.com.

[00:27:34] But you can also find me on Facebook.

[00:27:36] I'm part of the Wheelbarrow Profits group.

[00:27:39] I got a couple of good buddies that are in there already.

[00:27:42] Shout out to John Geldert.

[00:27:44] And yeah, so I'd love to, one of my big things is I love to try to help people that are one or two steps behind me.

[00:27:53] The same way that you helped me when you were many steps ahead of me.

[00:27:56] But you need somebody in your world who can just show you that it's possible.

[00:28:01] Even if I'm not going to sit there and quote unquote educate you,

[00:28:04] you just need to see those examples of somebody that's one or two steps away.

[00:28:08] So I love talking to friends and I'd love to talk to anybody who just wants to get started

[00:28:13] or just get that next deal or that first commercial deal.

[00:28:17] And, you know, I'd be the first person to admit I don't have all the answers.

[00:28:21] I probably contradicted myself at least once or twice on this particular podcast.

[00:28:25] But business and entrepreneurship is not a math equation as much as people think it is.

[00:28:32] It's more of an art and you might make some mistakes,

[00:28:34] but the painting will all come together at the end.

[00:28:37] If you don't make mistakes and you're not investing in real estate, that's the reality.

[00:28:41] There's been some really, for me, key golden nuggets here.

[00:28:44] The first one is think big, but start small.

[00:28:47] It's okay that you start with a single family.

[00:28:49] It's okay that you start with a duplex.

[00:28:51] You don't have to end there.

[00:28:52] And the whole idea is you have to surround yourself with people who are doing it.

[00:28:56] If you're an outcast and you're saying you're an introvert,

[00:28:58] well, there's not many more bigger introverts than myself.

[00:29:01] I was a really big introvert.

[00:29:03] I was always hiding from people, but I understood that if I'm going to be stuck

[00:29:06] around a certain group, they're not going to elevate my game.

[00:29:10] I need to find another group.

[00:29:11] I need to be in that room.

[00:29:14] I need to be able to provide value for that room.

[00:29:16] Then I need to create some kind of business plan, some kind of process or a map or a framework.

[00:29:20] We just have the buy right, the manage right, the finance right.

[00:29:24] Plug it in.

[00:29:25] Learn how to use that framework.

[00:29:26] Once you start learning how to use the framework,

[00:29:28] then it's all of a sudden putting in the work.

[00:29:30] I mean, going in there, if you have a job, spending extra time doing this.

[00:29:34] And then for yourself also, you don't have to listen to everyone's advice and saying,

[00:29:39] you need to pick this market or you need to pick that market.

[00:29:41] You need to pick the market that works for you.

[00:29:44] I went to Knoxville.

[00:29:45] I was fortunate that my business partner, Jake, moved to Knoxville.

[00:29:48] So that's where we decided 12, 13 years ago.

[00:29:51] No one even knew where Knoxville was if you're in New York.

[00:29:54] No one just knew.

[00:29:55] Tennessee did not exist in New Yorkers back then.

[00:29:57] It really didn't.

[00:29:58] So I was just fortunate that that was his backyard.

[00:30:00] So if you're struggling about a market, look within your market, see if it works.

[00:30:05] And I think finally, not growing your infrastructure,

[00:30:09] worrying about having the credibility, using common sense.

[00:30:13] And this wasn't said in the podcast, but I think it was echoed through the timeframe and the work.

[00:30:17] It's not going to happen overnight.

[00:30:19] Success doesn't happen overnight.

[00:30:20] You need to put some time and some effort into it.

[00:30:22] Don't rush.

[00:30:23] Don't get that get there-itis where all of a sudden you see everyone else closing deals

[00:30:27] and you're not closing deals.

[00:30:29] If you put in the time, you put in the effort, you put in the work,

[00:30:32] and you surround yourself with great people, and you have the business plan,

[00:30:35] sooner or later that deal will fall in your lap.

[00:30:40] Matthew, I want to thank you for being on the show.

[00:30:42] Any final words, my friend?

[00:30:44] No, you speak much more eloquently and put these ideas together and summarize much more easily than I did.

[00:30:52] But yeah, you're exactly right.

[00:30:53] It takes time.

[00:30:54] You have to just put yourself out there.

[00:30:56] Let it be known that you're a buyer.

[00:30:58] You're in the world.

[00:30:58] And things will start happening.

[00:31:01] You have to mentally commit to being a real estate investor first.

[00:31:05] Educate yourself on what it takes to do so.

[00:31:08] And things will happen.

[00:31:09] And you have to give it a few years sometimes.

[00:31:11] So you're exactly right.

[00:31:13] Matthew, I want to thank you for being on the Joe Rogan podcast.

[00:31:16] I'm sorry.

[00:31:17] I want to thank you for being on the Movers and Shakers podcast.

[00:31:19] And I will see you all on the next Movers and Shakers.

[00:31:22] Thanks, everyone.

[00:31:23] Thank you.